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  • MBA and the Military
    From: hben1  Oct 22, 2009 Posts 3

    I recently graduated from my undergraduate studies and have been unable to find meaningful work which will give me the leadership experience Wharton looks for in its applicants.  Then I considered what if I joined the Armed Forces as an officer to receive the leadership training I need.  I was looking for comments from any military people in the MBA program with any comments or suggestions about this idea.  Thanks in advance.

  • Re: MBA and the Military
    From: victormlee  Oct 23, 2009 Posts 154
    In reply to

    hben1,

    While my background is not in the military, I hope you will find the following remarks helpful.

    Wharton has some excellent officers who have matriculated in the MBA program (both in the US army and from other countries' armed forces). One of my cohortmates, for example, is an extremely sharp former Army intelligence officer who, through sharing his distinct experiences with our group, added much color to our class discussions.

    I am pretty sure all would agree with me that joining the military can be an excellent opportunity through which to develop leadership skills, discipline, and self-awareness. I would, however, strongly advise against joining the military just for the purpose of getting into an MBA program down the road. Joining a country's (voluntary) armed forces is a serious commitment and should be done because such an opportunity presents significant value in and of itself. Any benefits that may accrue to a future Wharton MBA application and/or experience should be seen as a bonus - not as a primary objective for enrolling.

    As with any significant life choice, do some serious research and self-examination to determine if this choice makes sense for you, at this time. Also keep in mind that people may change their minds and career desires many times during their life (especially when one is fresh out of college/university). You may end up deciding that an MBA is not right for you, down the road; if you enrolled in the armed forces just because you believed it would help you gain a leg up in the ad, missions process for Wharton, you could be up for a nasty surprise in some years.

    Good luck with your decision.

    Regards,

    Victor M. Lee

    MBA Candidate, Class of 2011

     

  • Re: MBA and the Military
    From: Fanaticalfan  Oct 23, 2009 Posts 360
    In reply to

    Leadership is about influencing people towards common goals, not necessarily about positions of authority. Wharton is looking for people with clear leadership POTENTIAL, rather than necessarily large amounts of leadership exerience to date.

    Certainly the leadership experiences you will get in the military far outstrip what most people face in the early stages of civilian careers. Even junior military officers are traditionally given responsiblity for significant numbers of soliders/sailors/airmen and millions of dollars of equipment, at a time when your peers in i-banking or consulting for all their fancy salaries aren't even allowed to do a powerpoint presentation without adult supervision.

    But the lessons you will learn about dealing with people, and how to motivate them even under the most extreme conditions is something that will serve you for many many years.

    But I've got to agree with Victor, serving in the military is a very significant commitment, and while people join up for many different reasons, it seems to me that serving in the military purely to tick a 'leadership' box for an MBA program is a pretty tough way of doing things. (My apologies in advance if I over misrepresenting your motivations here).

    Lieut. FF

  • Re: MBA and the Military
    From: dsteele86  Oct 31, 2009 Posts 2
    In reply to

    Hello.

    I'm a Career Enlisted Aviator (CEA) in the Air Force and I fly onboard a Command&Control and Intelligence platform. I've been doing it for three years now (in the AF over 4 now) and I work extensively with military officers; our crews consist primarily of officers. I work with intelligence officers, pilots, navigators, and controllers in both the Army and Air Force. I'm actually good friends with many of them despite the fraternization rules. In various exercises and real-world assignments, I've worked with Navy and Marine officers as well.

    I've witnessed the politics military officers must navigate in their professional lives and I've had multiple candid conversations with them involving their career choice and life-style.

    I'll say this much: Once you get in, you're going to expected to stay. Joining the military as an officer is much different than joining as enlisted. Most people think of the military from the traditional enlisted person's point of view where you join, do your part in "fighting for your country," then go back to the proverbial farm. The military likes a bulk of their enlisted force young, energetic, and mallable--mallable enough to convince to charge the hill. Not to mention, the max enlisted term is 6-years straight up--unless the stop-loss hammer falls on your head.  

    For officers it's different. Your training is going to take up more time and your active service time will be longer. For example, pilots have a minimum committment of 10 years. Regardless of the time of service on your contract, you're expected to come in and at least do your twenty years. These days you'll need to get an advanced degree to get anywhere past 0-3, but they encourage their young officers to finish their advanced degrees through online programs--at least in the Air Force. In the Army, I heard there is a program where they allow officers to leave for a few years to pursue a masters degree, but then of course you're even more in debt to them once you've completed your degree. The bottom-line is this, if you enter the service as an officer planning to separate as soon as you can, your going to be looked down upon. I know a Captain who is about to separate and he's been lectured multiple times by superior officers and even fellow peers about how big of a mistake he's making, how he's not patriotic, and how he's turning his back on them, etc, etc. 

    That being said, I do have to say that although he's dealing with negativity, he's already got two competing job offers lined-up (in this economy!) and will be skipping up a few tax-brackets once the bank-roll starts accumulating so I guess he'll get the last laugh.

    If you do decide to join, be prepared for anything. Join with a passive mind-set. Also, if you don't change your mind and do stick to your plan to separate and attend Wharton, don't let anyone know until it comes down to the final wire. That's just a little military office-politics strategy people frequently use.  

    A couple more things:

    If you decide to join through OTS or OCS (depends on the branch you join), be prepared to wait for a long time before you actually ship off to boot camp. I've heard of guys who wind waiting up to two-years before they finally started their programs. I know of one for certain. 

    Lastly, I want to end on a positve note on this subject. Everyone else is right, military officers do gain a wealth of leadership experience. For example, if you joined the Air Force as an aircraft maintenance officer you would show up the first day expected to manage hundreds of airmen, multiple multi-million-dollar Aircraft, and the millions of dollars that are spent on spare parts and tools. That is a lot of "growing up" to do, especially for guys in our age range (22-24) who are fresh out of the academy or ROTC. I'm actually on a deployment right now and my Aircraft Commander is a 26-year-old Captain (0-3). I've known this guy since he was an 0-1 three years ago and I've seen him mature 15 years in that short time period; very impressive. Another positive note about military experience and where it can take you... There was this intelligence officer in my squadron who wound up getting accepted into Harvard Law. Surprisingly, he got the whole negative reactions from his co-workers when he decided to leave, but. . . he got into Harvard. . . not a hard choice there.  

    In your case, for anyone that knows anything about business and finance, getting accepted into Wharton is pretty much as good as getting into Harvard so you'll definitely find yourself getting the last laugh.

    Well, my friend. I wrote quite a bit there. I hope you found it helpful. Best of luck to you and your endeavors! Now go forth and conquer! ;)

    Take care.       

  • Re: MBA and the Military
    From: victormlee  Nov 01, 2009 Posts 154
    In reply to

    I appreciate much of what dsteele86 has written, above, but there is one line with which I would take issue: "In your case, for anyone that knows anything about business and finance, getting accepted into Wharton is pretty much as good as getting into Harvard so you'll definitely find yourself getting the last laugh."

    It is absolutely imperative that people understand that schools are only good insofar as they match your career objectives and facilitate the accomplishment of those objectives. While schools may be able to be segregated into tiers, drawing specific relative rankings in the abstract is problematic because it fails to take into account the different motivations and reasons for which people choose to go to business school.

    Having studied at both Wharton and Harvard, I can say that both schools/universities are excellent institutions and have much to give their students. As far as their business schools are concerned, they have different strengths, in my opinion. Indeed, Wharton has a superb finance department. However, Wharton also has many other incredible departments that are of equal caliber, if not necessarily as "famous." Our Marketing department, for example, is arguably the best in the USA - or at least one of the best. What is important is to look at who is actually in the department, from where cutting edge research today is coming, and who is teaching. Some reputations for schools were built upon accomplishments or research performed many years ago, but that may no longer reflect the present state of the school's abilities and quality of offerings.

    For me, having seen how important quantitative skills are becoming in many disciplines and business areas that were traditionally non-quantitative or less quantitative (e.g. - marketing or business development vs. investment banking or private wealth management), I felt Wharton was the best choice for me. While I appreciate the case study method, which Wharton and virtually every top business school does adopt, I also wanted to make sure I developed a solid education and skillbase - not just "fluffy" skillsets. Wharton's element of lecture-style education combined with case study methods permitted me to get the best of both educational styles. It made sense for me. The question, now, is whether it makes sense for you.

    Good luck,

    Victor M. Lee

    MBA Candidate, Class of 2011

  • Re: MBA and the Military
    From: ljp555  Nov 03, 2009 Posts 1
    In reply to

    I have been a surface warfare officer in the Navy for the past 3 1/2 years.  A few comments:

    1. Military life is tough.  I just returned from a 5 months deployment (which is nothing compared to the Army or Marine Corps). Imagine living at work for 5 months or more.  In port, I usually work 60 hour weeks; if we have inspections coming up, it can easily be 100 hour weeks.  There are many good reasons to join the military, but in my opinion, looking good to an MBA admissions committee is not one of them.  Four years will be a long time if you're not there for the right reasons.

    2. You do get a TON of leadership experience.  You are a leader from day 1.  As a surface warfare officer, you get very little training before you are given a division and put in charge of equipment and people.  Your sailors are technical experts in their field, and you have to learn enough about their work to gain their respect and be able to provide meaningful guidance.  I can't think of another job where I would have been given so much responsibility with so little experience and training.  It's tough but very rewarding.

    3. Contrary to what others have written above, I don't think it's bad to join the military if you plan on getting out after your committment.  Yes, your chain of command will try to convince you to stay in, but it's not unusual for surface warfare officers to leave after 4 years.

    4. My community has programs for officers to get advanced degrees.  Surface warfare officers serve 4 years at sea, then go to shore duty where most are able to take classes.  If you commit to an additional 3 years of sea duty after your shore duty, the opportunities increase substantially; you are given much more time and money. Search for the SWO MBA program or 18-12 program.

    5. The attractiveness of my military service to Wharton's admissions committee remains to be seen.  However from speaking to admissions people at several programs, I believe it to be a significant asset.

  • Re: MBA and the Military
    From: hben1  Nov 11, 2009 Posts 3
    In reply to

    I just wanted to thank everyone for their responses.  I am still unsure of what direction I should take in life, but you responses did help clarify some things.  So, thank you all once again.

     

    Ben

  • Re: MBA and the Military
    From: victormlee  Nov 13, 2009 Posts 154
    In reply to

    You're welcome. Good luck!

    -Victor

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